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modern metal guitar tones
Post by enormiconmetal on Sep 10th, 2008, 12:24pm

so why does the guitar tone for a lot of these newer metal bands sound so...I don't know...nice? It's distorted 'n' all but it just lacks that menacing edge. Is it the over-produced sound of the their records in general? Sterile pickups? Over-processed guitar sound?
Re: modern metal guitar tones
Post by templarofshred on Jun 23rd, 2009, 5:22pm

I completely agree with you on that one.

It seems like its all tune down 2 steps and then EMG into a Messa Rectumfire grin

There was more diversity in past it just seems that a lot of stuff is now a standard formula from the way things are written to the guitar setups and then even the recording process.

Bands used to have to try harder to get high gain sounds and there were many ways to do that via modding or pedals etc so naturaly there was more variance in tones.
Re: modern metal guitar tones
Post by LIMETORD on Sep 28th, 2009, 02:06am

I am new to this forum and this is an old thread. I feel,however,that I can offer a little insight into this rather interesting subject-

With metal music,no one is using "real" amps anymore. What producers do is track the actual amp along with a direct signal so there are essentially two tracks for every guitar part. One track is the miked cab and the other is the direct signal.

When the guitarist goes home after a long day of of tracking power chords,the producer inserts a Pro Tools plug-in on all of the direct tracks to get the THE ACTUAL GUITAR SOUND THAT ENDS UP BEING ON THE ALBUM.

Many times,guitarists hear a mixed and mastered record that they played on and think that the final tone it is actually the sound of their beloved Kranker 1000 guitar amp that they had in the studio. Sadly- this is not the case.

The guitar tone on 90% of modern metal albums comes from software plug-ins.

Nevertheless- many guitarists will still continue to say how amazing their Frengel Buggerschnall Mark VII amps are.






Re: modern metal guitar tones
Post by ryanmichael95 on Sep 28th, 2009, 09:45am

Most rock albums today, if you can call them that, are pure crap, IMHO. It seems to me, every other decade great bands come along that have staying power, with the in-between decades becoming lost. There's always a few that are the exceptions, i.e. Van Halen and such, but most of the eighties sucked for rock music. Keep in mind this is just my opinion and I realize not everyone's going to agree. The seventies and nineties were great, and this decade again, for the most part, sucks. Again, there are the exceptions like always. I think 2010 and beyond will yield yet another great group of bands. I also think Soldano amps kick the living hell out of just about everything else amps, so this is why I say Mike needs to get his brand back out there with NAMM and all. Even though the SLO was unleashed in '87, and it was popular among bands such as *cough* poison and *cough* bon jovi, it really was either before or after it's time it seems. Imagine what this coming decade of bands could do with the SLO. If they figure it all out, man.......I'm just saying that I hope Mike pushes hard against all the mainstream mass produced crap that's out there, and hopefully his amps will find their ways back onto some really big albums. Then the "modern metal guitar tones" won't suck like they do now. Sorry for ranting! undecided
Re: modern metal guitar tones
Post by LIMETORD on Sep 29th, 2009, 10:28pm

I love the sound of 1980s bands like Dokken,Loudness and Accept. The guitar tones are real and not completely saturated with buzzy super high-gain distortion.

Modern metal amps have this buzzy harsh character that is nearly impossible to remove. Music styles change,however,and and manufacturers follow trends. Soldano has never changed which is one reason why I respect them so much. The SLO sounds like an amp that was "voiced" in 1987 for better or for worse. I love the SLO tone...alot of newer players consider that sound dated.

Not every metal band goes for the buzzy d-standard guitar tone these days. I heard this "classic metal" band called White Wizzard not long ago and they had a cool organic guitar sound...not sure what amps they used. They are going for that retro vibe with their sound.

Most modern metal bands go for the digital "POD tone" whether it comes from a POD unit or an amp that sounds like a POD unit or a software plug-in.

So- there are exceptions out there with bands that still play old-school metal. I still use combinations of amps/preamps + power amps and miked guitar cabinets in the studio. It can be a hassle,but it is worth it in the end...the tone is so much better.


Re: modern metal guitar tones
Post by 155 on Jan 8th, 2010, 11:48am

over produced pussy metal, scooped bs...alot of it that is
Re: modern metal guitar tones
Post by hellboy on Jan 18th, 2010, 9:13pm

It seems were about due for another breakthrough band. A new musical style.

Tough times in the past have created some of the best music and bands of all time. The way the economy is, natural disasters every 4 months, etc. etc.

It's gotta be coming.

Probably not the thread to post this,( modern metal guitar tones ) but besides Joe Bonomassa and Guthry Govan, I havent heard an exciting guitar tone on cd for some time.

It's either already been beaten to death, or sounds totally digital and overproduced. The same thing that hapened in the 80's.

I'm just not the biggest fan of playing as many notes as fast as you can for three minutes. The great ones can do more with one note. It's the spaces and the dynamics that make great music.

Re: modern metal guitar tones
Post by fuzzyguitars on Feb 18th, 2010, 11:52am

funny that you guys think that


i think that the slo can get some pretty wicked modern metal tones!
Re: modern metal guitar tones
Post by slowner on Feb 19th, 2010, 1:56pm

on Sep 29th, 2009, 10:28pm, LIMETORD wrote:
Not every metal band goes for the buzzy d-standard guitar tone these days. I heard this "classic metal" band called White Wizzard not long ago and they had a cool organic guitar sound...not sure what amps they used. They are going for that retro vibe with their sound.



That's very ironic. White Wizzard was using an SLO, which I now own. I answered a CraigsList ad, went over to their space and picked up an SLO and 4x12.
Re: modern metal guitar tones
Post by LIMETORD on Feb 19th, 2010, 10:45pm

Ha! That is definitely a weird coincidence. The White Wizzard stuff that I heard had some great guitar tones...not surprised they used a Soldano. The SLO in these live videos must be your amp then. smiley

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VCoVAsMzFg&feature=fvw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlrRMeIBH20&feature=channel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTyiadCb1OM


Re: modern metal guitar tones
Post by tekbow on Feb 26th, 2010, 07:30am

yeah but look at the pattern.. lol ive been thinking about this for a few days, talking with my girlfriend about it. the industry goes thru a cycle, seems to me anyway. the 50's, great breakout era for rock and roll then towards the end A&R men ruled into the mid 60's. a lot of covers of the same songs were released. late 60's into the 70's we get the brit explosion and the great american response to it, that gave us the stones, hendrix, the who, creedence clearwater, the doors and many others.

then disco came around with many innovative players doing new things noone had heard before, it became staid and commercial formulaic, the backlash was punk, the pistols etc in the uk and bands like husker du in the states.

it burned bright and short, then we got the west coast metal scene in the states, and the electronic thing in the u.k. it started out raw and edgy but by the end became silly and commercial

the backlash this time was grunge in america and acid house/ dance in britain. now we can go into more detail because this was something i saw happen.. i hit uni in 98, when dance music was massive but not commercial yet, you could got 20 differen clubs on any given night and here 20 diferent styles of dance music. into the 2000's and the small clubs are disappearing replaced with superclubs all playing the same chart crap.

so another stagnation..

for some reason then everything just became a demographic. when i was a kid i bought my combats in the army surplus store, now "metal kids" go to the same designer shops as everyone else to make their parents buy them 100 quid "distressed" metal wear. they're no different than the WAGS, the emo's, the clubbers.. and the music is he same.

right now metal, like a lot of other music seems to be a demographic.. its targetted at an age group. the music sounds the same, there's no rebellion anymore, there's no passion. bands dont make money, producers and labels do. Buy this sig axe, buy that sig amp, i have to have X guitar with Y pickups and Z amp to get band XYZ's tone..

the only band i think have really and truely kept there values, and have just gotten harder the older they get is slayer..

there will be a backlash soon, i wonder what we'll hear then grin
Re: modern metal guitar tones
Post by hellboy on Mar 6th, 2010, 7:20pm

on Feb 26th, 2010, 07:30am, tekbow wrote:
yeah but look at the pattern.. lol ive been thinking about this for a few days, talking with my girlfriend about it. the industry goes thru a cycle, seems to me anyway. the 50's, great breakout era for rock and roll then towards the end A&R men ruled into the mid 60's. a lot of covers of the same songs were released. late 60's into the 70's we get the brit explosion and the great american response to it, that gave us the stones, hendrix, the who, creedence clearwater, the doors and many others.

then disco came around with many innovative players doing new things noone had heard before, it became staid and commercial formulaic, the backlash was punk, the pistols etc in the uk and bands like husker du in the states.

it burned bright and short, then we got the west coast metal scene in the states, and the electronic thing in the u.k. it started out raw and edgy but by the end became silly and commercial

the backlash this time was grunge in america and acid house/ dance in britain. now we can go into more detail because this was something i saw happen.. i hit uni in 98, when dance music was massive but not commercial yet, you could got 20 differen clubs on any given night and here 20 diferent styles of dance music. into the 2000's and the small clubs are disappearing replaced with superclubs all playing the same chart crap.

so another stagnation..

for some reason then everything just became a demographic. when i was a kid i bought my combats in the army surplus store, now "metal kids" go to the same designer shops as everyone else to make their parents buy them 100 quid "distressed" metal wear. they're no different than the WAGS, the emo's, the clubbers.. and the music is he same.

right now metal, like a lot of other music seems to be a demographic.. its targetted at an age group. the music sounds the same, there's no rebellion anymore, there's no passion. bands dont make money, producers and labels do. Buy this sig axe, buy that sig amp, i have to have X guitar with Y pickups and Z amp to get band XYZ's tone..

the only band i think have really and truely kept there values, and have just gotten harder the older they get is slayer..

there will be a backlash soon, i wonder what we'll hear then grin


All very true. If you look even closer to the dates of the "backlash" you will see significant history/turmoil/wars/inventions.

It's coming. The best music is the underground stuff. The stuff you never really hear, until somebody makes it big. Then everybody jumps in, the record studios shape it until everybody sounds the same. Then it is boring, commercial. That seems to be the cycle.

But the " modern medal guitar tones " I hear all sound very similar, and therefore boring. Megadeath has stuck to thier roots, they still sound good. As does Slayer. But if you remember the late 70's early-mid 80's after Eddie, everyone copped his tone, his style, and ultimately it all got cheesy. It became a speed race. That is what it has become again to me. No style. All commercial B.S. It sounds funny to me all the anger. One band trying to sound more pissed off than the next.

Remember when Kurt Cobain and plaid shirts and ripped jeans was the latest music revolution. It sounded rebelious. But again the same cycle.

Just glad I never wore platform boots, jeans with 1000 zippers, black nail polish, eyeshadow and thought I was cool.
Re: modern metal guitar tones
Post by guccieng on Mar 6th, 2010, 9:18pm

i think we should face the fact that the only thing new about music is the audience.
Re: modern metal guitar tones
Post by Giga on Mar 7th, 2010, 06:39am

on Feb 19th, 2010, 10:45pm, LIMETORD wrote:
Ha! That is definitely a weird coincidence. The White Wizzard stuff that I heard had some great guitar tones...not surprised they used a Soldano. The SLO in these live videos must be your amp then. smiley

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VCoVAsMzFg&feature=fvw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlrRMeIBH20&feature=channel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTyiadCb1OM



Ha, that must be so cool to see your own amp on youtube smiley

Giga
Re: modern metal guitar tones
Post by ryanmichael95 on Mar 7th, 2010, 07:23am

Some really good posts from tekbow and hellboy....man this thread is very cool.
Re: modern metal guitar tones
Post by AngryGoldfish on Mar 11th, 2010, 10:45am

on Mar 7th, 2010, 07:23am, ryanmichael95 wrote:
Some really good posts from tekbow and hellboy....man this thread is very cool.


+1

TS, what metal bands are you talking about specifically?

I found a lot of the Thrash metal bands that came around during the 80's and later were as deriative as what we have now.
They suffered from an overly raw sound, and they're music was boring; the newer bands, then, are over-produced and boring.

It's a different phase for music - which is not what I like. Music isn't a phase, it's a way of life.
Re: modern metal guitar tones
Post by East Van-Q-ver on Mar 18th, 2010, 11:08pm

There are interesting things happening in metal these days. If you haven't heard them you aren't listening in the right places. High on Fire is a band that fucking slays. Celtic Frost put out Monothiest in 2006. Gotta go...

Re: modern metal guitar tones
Post by LIMETORD on Mar 22nd, 2010, 01:37am

Musically,there is tons of interesting stuff going on. Tone wise is a different story. Live metal tones have gotten worse over the years and the hideously trendy Frengel Buggerschall tones are not helping things out in that department. No one playing metal uses "real" amps in the studio anymore. Let me rephrase that a bit they may track with a real amp,but the signal is split with a direct signal and plug-ins are used for the final recorded tone. The same thing is done with drums. The final sound is a massive,crushing wall of (artificially produced) sound. Modern metal productions are akin to modern movie productions...lots of fanciful production techniques are used to overload the consumers' senses and give the illusion of a superior product. Alot of icing and no cake. Hollywood and (metal) music engineers have in effect perfected the art of turd polishing.
Re: modern metal guitar tones
Post by tekbow on Mar 22nd, 2010, 06:45am

and the mythbusters grin

im hearing this a lot actually, i don't do much, if any recording, and the notion is utterly horrifying..
Re: modern metal guitar tones
Post by hellboy on Mar 25th, 2010, 8:24pm

LIMETORD.

You said it all in a nutshell. Or in an Ubershell.


MUD.
Re: modern metal guitar tones
Post by shredheadpete on Apr 1st, 2010, 4:20pm

on Mar 22nd, 2010, 01:37am, LIMETORD wrote:
Musically,there is tons of interesting stuff going on. Tone wise is a different story. Live metal tones have gotten worse over the years and the hideously trendy Frengel Buggerschall tones are not helping things out in that department. No one playing metal uses "real" amps in the studio anymore. Let me rephrase that a bit they may track with a real amp,but the signal is split with a direct signal and plug-ins are used for the final recorded tone. The same thing is done with drums. The final sound is a massive,crushing wall of (artificially produced) sound. Modern metal productions are akin to modern movie productions...lots of fanciful production techniques are used to overload the consumers' senses and give the illusion of a superior product. Alot of icing and no cake. Hollywood and (metal) music engineers have in effect perfected the art of turd polishing.




Yep, add to that they auto tune, loop, gate and trim; they pretty much protools the shit out of everything.


Re: modern metal guitar tones
Post by hellboy on Apr 1st, 2010, 5:54pm

I wonder if some of this is due to the trend of music downloading. Seems everyone is listening to down loaded music through tiny ear buds or computer speakers. Is the modern music bieng tuned to tiny speakers?

I still like to actually buy entire CD. Sit down and listen to it start to finish. I actually perfer records. I think they sound more musical. I can hear a digital difference between a record and a CD of the same. I can hear an even bigger difference between a CD and an IPod.

But recently it seems most bands fill CD's with as many "singles" as they can. I miss the songs recorded for the diehard fans. Songs that are specific, true to thier roots.

Remember when you could listen to a CD and say, there it is, thats the single, or radio play list song. It is the stuff in between the singles that made great bands great.

Where is the B side stuff?
Re: modern metal guitar tones
Post by 05Softail on Apr 29th, 2010, 12:06pm

I am waiting for the creative reaction to death metal.

I have a feeling more kids are playing Guitar Hero instead of a real guitar. It is robbing our generation of upcoming players. It was fun to come home from jr. high and plug in my guitar and work on some KISS Alive I or Aerosmith, Steeley Dan... I don't think Guitar Hero is developing future musicians. Sure music is fun for me to play, but also it gives something to someone else. Not sure that is coming across in a video game. Music is not really at it's best when it is approached as a game, to push this button for sound A, or that one for sound B.
Re: modern metal guitar tones
Post by AngryGoldfish on Apr 29th, 2010, 1:42pm

on Apr 29th, 2010, 12:06pm, 05Softail wrote:
I am waiting for the creative reaction to death metal.

I have a feeling more kids are playing Guitar Hero instead of a real guitar. It is robbing our generation of upcoming players. It was fun to come home from jr. high and plug in my guitar and work on some KISS Alive I or Aerosmith, Steeley Dan... I don't think Guitar Hero is developing future musicians. Sure music is fun for me to play, but also it gives something to someone else. Not sure that is coming across in a video game. Music is not really at it's best when it is approached as a game, to push this button for sound A, or that one for sound B.


I think it both encourges people to play, and discourages.

Today, there are far easier ways to get in contact with good music - YouTube, Guitar Hero, Radio, LastFm, Myspace, MTV, etc. - And although it both distracts youths from playing instruments, it also opens up so many different avenues of music to these people. You can't ignore rock music any more.

And, in my opinion, if a young lad/lassie really wants to play guitar, little can stop him from doing that.
Re: modern metal guitar tones
Post by SOFmed on Jun 18th, 2010, 1:41pm

A lot of the so-called metal that I've heard in the last few years, is downright whiney. It sounds like the Emo influence is satrting to work it's way into metal and it really chaps my ass. This faggy, "mom and dad didn't hold me enough, my life is hard and my girl dumped me" crap has no place in metal.

A lot of the stuff I've heard just sounds like they need to turn the amp up and the preamp gain down. It's fuzzy and overly saturated with flat cardboard like dynamics. There's so much good gear available today. I think a lot of people are just overly dependant on preamp gain. This crap is like the antithesis of Fair Warning, Out of the Cellar, Appetite for Destruction orUnder Lock and Key. Marshall, Soldano or whatever...ou've still got to crank it to get to the good stuff. SLO's just get magical past 5. smiley
Re: modern metal guitar tones
Post by AngryGoldfish on Jun 18th, 2010, 8:11pm

on Mar 22nd, 2010, 01:37am, LIMETORD wrote:
Musically,there is tons of interesting stuff going on. Tone wise is a different story. Live metal tones have gotten worse over the years and the hideously trendy Frengel Buggerschall tones are not helping things out in that department. No one playing metal uses "real" amps in the studio anymore. Let me rephrase that a bit they may track with a real amp,but the signal is split with a direct signal and plug-ins are used for the final recorded tone. The same thing is done with drums. The final sound is a massive,crushing wall of (artificially produced) sound. Modern metal productions are akin to modern movie productions...lots of fanciful production techniques are used to overload the consumers' senses and give the illusion of a superior product. Alot of icing and no cake. Hollywood and (metal) music engineers have in effect perfected the art of turd polishing.


That's generalizing a lot. Not all modern metal is processed and digital sounding.

Anyway, there are many, many great people who love that style of producing and engineering. Who are you to say that these musicians have substantially and accidentally degraded metal somehow and detracted from it's original and most important statement? You're judging an enormous population of people without giving any evidence to the matter, other than what seems to be speculation. Okay yeah, you may not like the tone of modern metal, but there are far more people that don't like the stripped-down and raw metal records of the 60-90's. Who's right? In my opinion, it's totally up to the individual and their ears. But you didn't say it like it was an opinion; you said it like it was fact - new metal = shit / old metal = heaven ... which isn't very fair.

And besides, most people fail to realise that whatever they grow up with, that is what matters to them the most. If you grew up in the 90's listening to metal and other forms of music, that is what is most likely gonna matter to you the most. Obviously there are exceptions to that rule and it's a generalized statement, but I believe it to be true.

I don't cherish Sabbath like I cherish High on Fire, when they clearly have stark similarities. It's because Sabbath was from a different era. HOF were born when I was born. That means something to me – it's not just sound and quality of music. Metal, to me, is about community and living in the moment.

on Jun 18th, 2010, 1:41pm, SOFmed wrote:
A lot of the so-called metal that I've heard in the last few years, is downright whiney. It sounds like the Emo influence is satrting to work it's way into metal and it really chaps my ass. This faggy, "mom and dad didn't hold me enough, my life is hard and my girl dumped me" crap has no place in metal.

A lot of the stuff I've heard just sounds like they need to turn the amp up and the preamp gain down. It's fuzzy and overly saturated with flat cardboard like dynamics. There's so much good gear available today. I think a lot of people are just overly dependant on preamp gain. This crap is like the antithesis of Fair Warning, Out of the Cellar, Appetite for Destruction orUnder Lock and Key. Marshall, Soldano or whatever...ou've still got to crank it to get to the good stuff. SLO's just get magical past 5. smiley


Another over-generalized remark. Smashing Pumpkins were one of the first emo bands, but they don't get the amount of slagging recent "emo" bands receive. It's cool for Pumpkins, Nirvana and The Cure to be morose and whinny, but not Devil Sold his Soul or Funeral for a Friend...

And I have this niggling feeling that you've never really played an amp with a GOOD preamp section, like a Baron, Titan, Diezel, Elmwood, Soldano (yep, kick-ass preamp section essential in the SLO tone), Fryette. And even if you have and still feel that way, that's absolutely fine. Just don't start berating everything in a condescending statement because you've seen one-too-many kids playing fizzy Triple Rectifiers and 6505's in their bedrooms.

I'm not angry or having a go, btw. I'm simply stating that I happen to love preamp gain when it's used properly; in conjunction with power-amp gain / tone. The “best” amps are those that aren't afraid to use a bit of both – such as Soldano, Orange, Egnater, Bogner and Marshall (to a certain degree).

At least to me. Again, I'm really not trying to be argumentative. I just feel like having a chat. smiley
Re: modern metal guitar tones
Post by MrYou on Jun 19th, 2010, 12:00am

I don't listen to "Emo" so I don't truly know what it is, but umm... Smashing Pumpkins, The Cure, Nirvana??!! Emo??!! You seem to only be referring to their lyrics right?? Sorry sir, but you're definitely wrong on that one. Your comments have me confused.

I agree with SOFmed comments in regards to "Nu Metals" over reliance on extreme high gain preamp fuzziness with virtually zero dynamics. Its just bland boring rhythm tone, IMO. Thats what they want though. I guess this is where Producers and Sound Engineers earn their pay, making that mush mix well.
Re: modern metal guitar tones
Post by SOFmed on Jun 19th, 2010, 03:12am

Geez AGF...goooozfraba.....it's just my oppinion; calm down. I was reffering to some of the more overly produced nu metal or whatever you call it albums I've heard where the tone is just super saturated. I'm not reffering to any one particular band, guitar player or amp, and I have a "nigling" feeling that I own a Rockstah Mod5 Mojave, a Plexi set up by Dave Friedman of Racksystems, have played a few SLOs, own a Voodoo Deluxe modded 6505+, played a Bogner Shiva and Uberschall, Deizel Herbert, Elmwood Modena, a few Egnators...c'mon brothah you aint the only one to get your hands on the good stuff. wink

What I'm saying is that with even good high gain amps, they sound better cranked, and you can still over do the distortion on just about any of them. I don't think I'm being condescending or berating by voicing my oppinion about how their shit tone sounds to me.

And I dig the Pumpkins and Nirvana; they had good tunes and to me their music at least seemed honest. As for whiney "Emo'ish bands, I was more reffering to stuff like "Bullet for my Valentine". Sorry if there any Emo fans out there, or if any of you really dig that crappy band. laugh

I think one good example of a "non-whiney" modern metal band with good guitar tone is Opeth on blackwater Park. There's a lot of good stuff out there; good playing and good tone. Just erks me that the stuff that seems to get more of the radio play sounds like a bunch of no talent pussies with lame riffs hiding behind way too much distortion. Just my .02; doesn't mean I'm right. grin
Re: modern metal guitar tones
Post by AngryGoldfish on Jun 19th, 2010, 1:13pm

on Jun 19th, 2010, 03:12am, SOFmed wrote:
Geez AGF...goooozfraba.....it's just my oppinion; calm down. I was reffering to some of the more overly produced nu metal or whatever you call it albums I've heard where the tone is just super saturated. I'm not reffering to any one particular band, guitar player or amp, and I have a "nigling" feeling that I own a Rockstah Mod5 Mojave, a Plexi set up by Dave Friedman of Racksystems, have played a few SLOs, own a Voodoo Deluxe modded 6505+, played a Bogner Shiva and Uberschall, Deizel Herbert, Elmwood Modena, a few Egnators...c'mon brothah you aint the only one to get your hands on the good stuff. wink

What I'm saying is that with even good high gain amps, they sound better cranked, and you can still over do the distortion on just about any of them. I don't think I'm being condescending or berating by voicing my oppinion about how their shit tone sounds to me.

And I dig the Pumpkins and Nirvana; they had good tunes and to me their music at least seemed honest. As for whiney "Emo'ish bands, I was more reffering to stuff like "Bullet for my Valentine". Sorry if there any Emo fans out there, or if any of you really dig that crappy band. laugh

I think one good example of a "non-whiney" modern metal band with good guitar tone is Opeth on blackwater Park. There's a lot of good stuff out there; good playing and good tone. Just erks me that the stuff that seems to get more of the radio play sounds like a bunch of no talent pussies with lame riffs hiding behind way too much distortion. Just my .02; doesn't mean I'm right. grin


Why are you telling me to calm down? I told you I'm not angry in any way. I'm just having a conversion with someone on the interwebz.

And it was just making a point when I said you haven't experienced good amps. You wouldn't be on the Soldano forums if you hadn't. wink I didn't mean it to offend anyone or to assume myself as a more knowledgeable person regarding amplifiers than anyone else. In fact, it's probably the other way around. tongue

Yeah, most amps do sound better cranked. But that's often because of the Fletcher Munson effect, not because of the power-amp gain. There are definitely many amps that demand loud volumes to hit saturated, compressed levels of bliss, but there are many amps that DON'T require that. And those are often lumped into the same category as those overly-compressed, fizzy, mushy, mid-scooped amp tones you're speaking of.

I appreciate Bullet for my Valentine as they're a fun band to listen to. I never take them seriously when they're so unrelatable and unbelievable. But that doesn't mean they're whinny or crap. Look at Iron Maiden or Megadeth – they don't exactly sing about interesting or important topics. They're just fun rock bands - who happen to have whinny and annoying voices.

Opeth are awesome. And yeah, it bothers me too that Bullet will be regarded higher over Opeth. But that's life. Look at Taylor Swift – I find her music very pretentious and frustrating. But it's catchy and “sweet”. So people will favour her over someone else of higher talent, like Laura Marling or the older greats like Kate Bush and Björk.

on Jun 19th, 2010, 12:00am, MrYou wrote:
I don't listen to "Emo" so I don't truly know what it is, but umm... Smashing Pumpkins, The Cure, Nirvana??!! Emo??!! You seem to only be referring to their lyrics right?? Sorry sir, but you're definitely wrong on that one. Your comments have me confused.

I agree with SOFmed comments in regards to "Nu Metals" over reliance on extreme high gain preamp fuzziness with virtually zero dynamics. Its just bland boring rhythm tone, IMO. Thats what they want though. I guess this is where Producers and Sound Engineers earn their pay, making that mush mix well.


Emo IS the lyrics. It's not emo without emotional lyrics. And if you're talking about emo as a fashion statement then Pumpkins and The Cure fit that bill, too.

Why are you confused? I'm simply saying that it's narrow-minded to accuse today's “emo music” whilst having the utmost respect for latter day “emo music”. It's all just music at the end of the day. There's no right or wrong way of doing it.

I play heavy metal but I use very little gain. I find too much gain - whether from the preamp valves or poweramp valves - just covers over everything with noise (obviously that can be useful for certain genres), and doesn't allow the guitarist to “shine through” dynamically.
Re: modern metal guitar tones
Post by LIMETORD on Jun 20th, 2010, 03:31am

High on Fire is not what I would consider a "modern metal" band exactly...those guys are influenced by Black Sabbath and 1970s hard-rock bands and they sound like it. Modern is more of a stylistic + sound descriptor. In regard to metal, Killswitch Engage,Trivium,Slipknot,Lamb of God (I.e.- cookie-monster MTV kiddie metal crap with detuned and/or 7-string guitars) would be "modern" sounding. Opeth would fall into that category as well sonically but not so much stylistically. My previous post was not a generalization (and not really a criticism either...just a fact of modern metal productions.) The variables of unique sounding amps + drum sets are seldom present on modern metal productions. The reason is simple- the fans want that huge sound generated by plug-ins and samples and the labels,managers and artists feel that they must provide a product that can compete in the market. This doesn't prevent bands that are not "modern" sounding from employing those production methods...I'd bet my SLO that plug-ins and drum samples were used on all recent High on Fire albums. And Opeth?! Forget it...all guitar plug-ins and drum samples. Once again, not a criticism at all...just a fact of modern metal productions.
Re: modern metal guitar tones
Post by AngryGoldfish on Jun 20th, 2010, 10:08am

No, I agree that HOF aren't modern metal. I don't even know if I'd call them "metal" at all. undecided

Opeth, in my opinion, are more in the 80's technical metal range, taking inspiration from bands like Rush, Dream Theatre, Cynic, Death, etc. I never would of sectioned them as a modern band sonically. They have too much of a dark undertone to be modern (which is often quite bright and optimistic).

I don't know about HOF using plug-ins. Have you watched their studio footage on YouTube? Matt is using Mike's first Soldano from lend, and it looks like he's going straight into a mic and into the mixing board / audio interface. I could be wrong obviously, but I just can't imagine HOF using plug-ins when they're sound is so raw. I'm sure they will use a few of them to a certain degree, but not for the core sound. Maybe as little fill sections, but little else - from a guess.

You say it's not a criticism, but you still call Slipknot crap. I definitely see what you're saying - and to a large extent I agree with it - but there is a strong chance that the people who have grown up with Slipknot and the energy they produce will be saying the same thing you and others are saying now in 20 years time when production methods have changed AGAIN, because it's just evolution.
Re: modern metal guitar tones
Post by LIMETORD on Jun 20th, 2010, 2:45pm

Technology in the film industry paralells the music industry. If you take a "heavy-metal" album from 20 years ago and compare it to today,they sound very different. Why is that? It's due to the technologies involved with the production such as plug-ins and drum samples,auto-tune + harmony processors. Electric guitars,tube amps and drumsets have hardly changed at all over the past 25 years! If Nevermore,Megadeth,Opeth,etc. went back 25 years they couldn't make an album that sounds like one of their recent productions. The material would obviously still be of high artistic quality (this is subjective of course.) In 1985, analog recording was the method of recording and digital editing capabilities,plug-ins and drum replacement were distant technologies. So- modern metal guitar and drum sounds are the result of technological advances....not "superior guitars,amps,drums,cymbals,etc." This results in many bands using the same software for guitar and drum sounds which results in a massive but generic sound. The same goes for the visuals in the movie and video game industry. This doesn't mean that quality albums and movies are not being made with state-of-the-art technologies. In addition- it doesn't prevent quality music and movies from being produced using older production forms. In terms of metal- it's all an illusion...the same way that the flying primates in Avatar are an illusion. Monstrous sounding power chords and flying space monkeys are pretty cool though! smiley
Re: modern metal guitar tones
Post by AngryGoldfish on Jun 21st, 2010, 1:41pm

But if Slipknot's music was made in the 80's, alongside Judas Priest and Metallica when analogue technology was rampant, would they still have created the same energy and aggression?

In my opinion they would have. Of course, they would have received even more hate than they do now because of their image and vulgarity. But accepted at the same time because of their production qualities, which were akin to the time; But only by those who were listening to music of that era. Those who grew up listening to Sabbath and Zeppelin in the 60's, when production was even less “digital”, would have scorned them as “modern bullshit”, just like others are doing now.

That's my point: people will always be complaining, saying how things were "better in their day", and so and so forth. It could of been, yeah. But there's no point saying Cookie Monster music is all BS because of it's “whinny” vocals or because of it's “processed” production qualities, because in 20 years time, someone else will be complaining at another form of music engineering that has changed the face of music again.
Re: modern metal guitar tones
Post by tekbow on Jul 6th, 2010, 5:39pm

Wow, all happened when i was away.

i don't even know where to start on this one, but basically, Dan i disagree with virtually everything you've said..

I think what people are railing against here is the nature of new "metal" bands, in that the feeling is that they are generally big label commercial constructs, there to make money out of a demographic. especially "emo".. it's just the worst kind of commercial crap, and as for claiming them as "the original emos" i think billy corgan would have something to say about that. hell even my chemical romance came out and said they were never emo because they wanted to be taken seriously.

in my day (here we go lol) you wanted a pair of combats you went to the army navy surplus and picked up a pair for a tenner. these days there are "specialist" shops catering to the "metal" genre where your combats cost you 50 quid and have a label on them. i've seen it.

the reason we blast on these bands is because this kind of music killed real metal when the marketers got their hands on it. Nu metal was the start of it and it declined in quality and diversity form there.

i will make reference to one comment made about megadeth just singing about fun stuff (paraphrasing). have you listened to them? holy wars? symphony of destruction? peace sells but who's buying? these guys had something to say.

and as for criticising rawness? that's what metal is, you want emotion? well metal is anger and outrage and protestation against everything that's wrong with the world. not "she didn't talk to me in school so i cried myself to sleep after attempting to self harm with a plastic knife in a place were people would notice, but not too badly cos it hurt"

and we don't necessarily think that in our day it was better either. i was too young to know metal existed in the 80's and i certainly wasn't around in the 70's but i think hole in the sky by sabbath is one of the heaviest tunes of all time. i think hair metal was embaressing in the 80's but there was more to metal than that. and here i am to this day still appreciating venom (witching hour anyone). the production in all of these periods was good and bad, as was the music, but for those of us who remember times before Nu metal, it's pretty universal opinion that a good proportion of what came out post nu metal in the generic metal/emo bracket is pretty poor. there are some exceptions like opeth, but their influences lie a lot earlier. and at least dragonforce have the good sense to be a parody.
Re: modern metal guitar tones
Post by 05Softail on Jul 7th, 2010, 08:39am

There will always be the disgruntled and underground revolution against the commercial babyfood tossed to the masses. That is the spirt and hope of rock and roll/metal whatever you want to call it.

The music industry still wants to craft a sound, feed it to the masses, have the lemmings but it, buy the clothes, buy the concert tickets. And there are people that want to be the next metal version of Paris Hilton. A match made in hell.

I just like the music. Good music finds a way out. When Nirvana broke, the energy was pure and felt like a swinging sledge hammer to the constructed sound of the day. It will happed again. And some marketing guy will try to capture it, cage it, process it, and sell it to all the Miley Cyrus fans that have grown up.

And we will rock on and not waste too much time thinking about it.
Re: modern metal guitar tones
Post by AngryGoldfish on Jul 7th, 2010, 10:32am

I don't know if I want to go back into this because so many of you clearly feel that metal these days is all about, "she didn't talk to me in school so I cried myself to sleep after attempting to self harm with a plastic knife in a place were people would notice, but not too badly cos it hurt" ... when that is a VERY small minority of music. A minority, I might add, I have no experience with. I mean, name a band that actually sings about stuff like that and I'll tell you whether I've heard of them or like them.

I'm not having a go, I just feel it's hypocritical of both of us. I dissed Megadeth for being shallow - in which you strongly disagreed and added a further point stating they had something to say - and you dissed modern music for being shallow - in which you are very wrong, making you hypocritical, like me.

Like I said, it's such a clichéd thing to say that “all more metal is about hurting myself and being pissed off my girlfriend isn't going down on my enough”, when that is a load of bs. We all know that is only an extremely small figure of bands these days. And they aren't popular, not that I know of. I'm talking about bands like Slipknot, Gojira, The Dillinger Escape Plan, Cloudkicker, Between the Buried and Me, Cult of Luna, Devil Sold His Soul, ISIS, Machine Head, etc. NOT whatever bands you're talking about.

And when you look at Machine Head, I personally see them as a more modernized version of Megadeth - They have the cheesy lyrics, awesome riffs and devoted fans - But, while Megadeth centres strictly within the original version of thrash, Machine Head have branched out into sludge, groove metal, etc. whilst still retaining their thrashy element. They are not processed from the record industry.

It's really annoying when people speculate the origins of certain artists. cry
Re: modern metal guitar tones
Post by tekbow on Jul 7th, 2010, 11:25am

on Jul 7th, 2010, 10:32am, AngryGoldfish wrote:
I'm not having a go,



You kinda were.. saying i'm not having a go doesn't make it any less so

on Jul 7th, 2010, 10:32am, AngryGoldfish wrote:
I just feel it's hypocritical of both of us. I dissed Megadeth for being shallow - in which you strongly disagreed and added a further point stating they had something to say - and you dissed modern music for being shallow - in which you are very wrong, making you hypocritical, like me.



I'm not being hypocrtitcal. The hypocracy is the money making machine of the modern commercial music industry which stifles anything that isn't crafted towards an established demographic, which, unless you listen to ultra indie label music, most modern "metal" is. I'm not even that big a MD fan, although dave mustaine is a tasty riffer

on Jul 7th, 2010, 10:32am, AngryGoldfish wrote:
Like I said, it's such a clichéd thing to say that “all more metal is about hurting myself and being pissed off my girlfriend isn't going down on my enough”


Not to those of us who felt totally alienated when nu metal took our music away. Like it or not Emo is the direct descendent of that. and come on really man.. middle class teenage angst is a bit hypocritical and pretentious

on Jul 7th, 2010, 10:32am, AngryGoldfish wrote:
And when you look at Machine Head, I personally see them as a more modernized version of Megadeth - They have the cheesy lyrics, awesome riffs and devoted fans - But, while Megadeth centres strictly within the original version of thrash, Machine Head have branched out into sludge, groove metal, etc. whilst still retaining their thrashy element. They are not processed from the record industry.


Let's not go classifying machinehead as a modern metal band. to me and a lot of us they are the evolution that Metal probably should have taken, given their recent output, i'm prepared to forgive them the deadends that were their albums post "the more things change" and pre "ashes of empires". BTW i went to see these guys support slayer in 95 in belfast. they were one of the roadrunner bands. a fine fine label.

on Jul 7th, 2010, 10:32am, AngryGoldfish wrote:
It's really annoying when people speculate the origins of certain artists. cry


shouldn't have started it then. and i'm not speculating. i was there..

look.. there are a lot of fine modern metal bands out there but this whole debate started because of a question about the sound of modern metal. what most people are objecting to is the fact that it's all software processed overproduced soulessness. it really ain't any different than britney spears, it's the easiest way to output a large amount of dross quickly, and make the most money for the minimum investment. Guys like machine head, slayer, etc don't do that. they still crank and amp in a studio, let rip. and it just sounds better..
Re: modern metal guitar tones
Post by AngryGoldfish on Jul 7th, 2010, 8:31pm

Emo was born from many different sources, fashions and eras. It was the natural progression of human beings and their desire to be different that really istignated the new musical fad that we're callilng Emo.

For people are more alert about their feelings these days. Magazines give advice on a weekly basis towards those who feel genuinely suicidal or are having marital problems, because that is what people what to read / see / hear. I don't like 'fake' bands either, but I think there is a definitely a miscommunication between us - as I don't know what bands you're talking about. Who are these processed, shitty bands? - After all this talk, I could well agree with you. But, according to many of you here, modern metal is crap because it's whiny and digital.

I'm just going to clarify my point regarding Britney Spears and your point regarding her and the similarities of metal bands today: How are you really to know that Britney Spears didn't love the music that she either helped write or let others write? Because if she did, and if it meant something to others around the globe, so what if it's processed? So what if it makes loads of money? The cheese you eat in your fridge is processed - it needs to be to sell cheaply. The speakers in your cabinets are processed - they need to be or else you'd have to pay twice the price. It doesn't make them useless. These bands serve a purpose, and if they enjoy what they're doing, good for them.

Anyway, if you equate these bands (which still have not been mentioned) to Britney Spears, how can you really know for sure they were mass-produced by marketing companies for the sake of earning money? And how are you to know the bands themselves couldn't give two shits as long as they were making money? You're just guesstimating. If you can actually show me a hard example of a band member you spoke to or read an interview on or even heard rumours about, show me them. I look at bands like KISS, Aerosmith, Bon Jovi, and see the same thing that you see regarding modern bands. But I try not to bitch about them because, even though they sound fake and "digital", every time I read an interview about them or watch a YouTube clip, I remember that these are people that do really love music.

And the same goes for pop music. Yes, some are regularly reported as manufactured music, simply to earn money, but they happen to also make a lot of people happy. And that's fine.
Re: modern metal guitar tones
Post by tekbow on Jul 8th, 2010, 03:52am

on Jul 7th, 2010, 8:31pm, AngryGoldfish wrote:
Emo was born from many different sources, fashions and eras. It was the natural progression of human beings and their desire to be different that really istignated the new musical fad that we're callilng Emo.

For people are more alert about their feelings these days. Magazines give advice on a weekly basis towards those who feel genuinely suicidal or are having marital problems, because that is what people what to read / see / hear.


Dan, come on.. are you trying to tell me Emo is a natural evolution of human conciousness, and that up until Emo arrived, there weren't as many magazine columns helplines etc for people with problems? to you Emo is a cause/way of life/mantra etc. to the guys making a bunch of money off you, your a loyal demographic..


on Jul 7th, 2010, 8:31pm, AngryGoldfish wrote:
I don't like 'fake' bands either, but I think there is a definitely a miscommunication between us - as I don't know what bands you're talking about. Who are these processed, shitty bands? - After all this talk, I could well agree with you. But, according to many of you here, modern metal is crap because it's whiny and digital.


Most (not all) of the guys you mentioned tbh.. and no, according to most of us here, modern metal is crap because it's commercial..

on Jul 7th, 2010, 8:31pm, AngryGoldfish wrote:
I'm just going to clarify my point regarding Britney Spears and your point regarding her and the similarities of metal bands today: How are you really to know that Britney Spears didn't love the music that she either helped write or let others write? Because if she did, and if it meant something to others around the globe, so what if it's processed? So what if it makes loads of money? The cheese you eat in your fridge is processed - it needs to be to sell cheaply. The speakers in your cabinets are processed - they need to be or else you'd have to pay twice the price. It doesn't make them useless. These bands serve a purpose, and if they enjoy what they're doing, good for them.


I can pretty much guarantee you that britney spears wrote none of her songs or music, in fact she's a great example of someone who was bled dry to the point of breaking by everyone who was supposed to protect her, it's no wonder she's a mess..

cheese is processed because eating unpasteurised dairy products isn't a fantastic idea, not bad for you as such, but risky. i don't see what that has to do with music. I'm not quite getting what you mean by processed speakers..? do you mean manufactured? um... if they weren't i'd be looking at a large heavy magnet, a bunch of wire and a load of cardboard, probably scratching my head. i wouldn't have paid twice the price for it though.

But as for manufacturing music and mass production, well that stifles creativity. when you tool up to go in to mass production you produce a lot of things cheaply due to the volume and economies of scale. most of the metal genres right now are false economies, as they make out to be different from each other when really all they have done (and i'm talking about the vast amount of chaff out there) is taken a particular element from earlier more balanced metal and ran with it, resulting in very repititive, identikit music. even most of the genre's don't sound different from each other..


on Jul 7th, 2010, 8:31pm, AngryGoldfish wrote:
Anyway, if you equate these bands (which still have not been mentioned) to Britney Spears, how can you really know for sure they were mass-produced by marketing companies for the sake of earning money? And how are you to know the bands themselves couldn't give two shits as long as they were making money? You're just guesstimating. If you can actually show me a hard example of a band member you spoke to or read an interview on or even heard rumours about, show me them. I look at bands like KISS, Aerosmith, Bon Jovi, and see the same thing that you see regarding modern bands. But I try not to bitch about them because, even though they sound fake and "digital", every time I read an interview about them or watch a YouTube clip, I remember that these are people that do really love music.

And the same goes for pop music. Yes, some are regularly reported as manufactured music, simply to earn money, but they happen to also make a lot of people happy. And that's fine.


So, what, in essence, you're saying is f**k the music, it's not important, quite happy with a bunch of guys making a whole lot of money from me in return for weak music?


Re: modern metal guitar tones
Post by MrYou on Jul 8th, 2010, 10:39am


Yeah I'm not buying what he's selling. wink
Re: modern metal guitar tones
Post by AngryGoldfish on Jul 8th, 2010, 11:12am

I don't think I should keep talking about this. We both know it's not really what the Soldano forum is all about. I can't persuade you otherwise, and I know you can't persuade me otherwise. I had a big comment written up as an argument - with articles en all - but it's just kinda silly. I'm not the kind of person who becomes angry at a disagreement - I kinda think it's fun talkin' about this shit - so I hope there are no hard feelings between us?
Re: modern metal guitar tones
Post by tekbow on Jul 8th, 2010, 11:16am

chill Dan wink people are allowed to disagree, i wasn't being annoyed with you.
Re: modern metal guitar tones
Post by AngryGoldfish on Jul 8th, 2010, 3:14pm

Thanks, mate.

I wasn't annoyed at you either, it's just hard to tell sometimes whether you've insulted somebody with the way you talk or type.

grin
Re: modern metal guitar tones
Post by 05Softail on Jul 17th, 2010, 07:23am

I was, you wasted a shit load of space on here whining like a little emo douche bag...

Not really.... Ever get good and stoned, look over at the lamp near your recliner and see a wisp of smoke and laugh... the smoke that got away.... That was this last dozen posts.... the point got away IMO.

For modern tones, nothing wrong with getting a nice VH4S or Herbie, I like my Rivera Knuck Tre. For some reason drop tuning is associated with modern tone. Not splitting hairs, but the lower frequency is not a tone, it is a note. Unless you are calling a note a tone as compared to an amp voicing. The more compressed and tight grind in newer amps is cool, for a bit of variety. Not my staple amp voice but fun as hell to bash out some heavy stuff once in a while.