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 veryhotthread  Author  Topic: modern metal guitar tones  (Read 6933 times)
MrYou
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xx Re: modern metal guitar tones
« Reply #26 on: Jun 19th, 2010, 12:00am »

I don't listen to "Emo" so I don't truly know what it is, but umm... Smashing Pumpkins, The Cure, Nirvana??!! Emo??!! You seem to only be referring to their lyrics right?? Sorry sir, but you're definitely wrong on that one. Your comments have me confused.

I agree with SOFmed comments in regards to "Nu Metals" over reliance on extreme high gain preamp fuzziness with virtually zero dynamics. Its just bland boring rhythm tone, IMO. Thats what they want though. I guess this is where Producers and Sound Engineers earn their pay, making that mush mix well.
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xx Re: modern metal guitar tones
« Reply #27 on: Jun 19th, 2010, 03:12am »

Geez AGF...goooozfraba.....it's just my oppinion; calm down. I was reffering to some of the more overly produced nu metal or whatever you call it albums I've heard where the tone is just super saturated. I'm not reffering to any one particular band, guitar player or amp, and I have a "nigling" feeling that I own a Rockstah Mod5 Mojave, a Plexi set up by Dave Friedman of Racksystems, have played a few SLOs, own a Voodoo Deluxe modded 6505+, played a Bogner Shiva and Uberschall, Deizel Herbert, Elmwood Modena, a few Egnators...c'mon brothah you aint the only one to get your hands on the good stuff. wink

What I'm saying is that with even good high gain amps, they sound better cranked, and you can still over do the distortion on just about any of them. I don't think I'm being condescending or berating by voicing my oppinion about how their shit tone sounds to me.

And I dig the Pumpkins and Nirvana; they had good tunes and to me their music at least seemed honest. As for whiney "Emo'ish bands, I was more reffering to stuff like "Bullet for my Valentine". Sorry if there any Emo fans out there, or if any of you really dig that crappy band. laugh

I think one good example of a "non-whiney" modern metal band with good guitar tone is Opeth on blackwater Park. There's a lot of good stuff out there; good playing and good tone. Just erks me that the stuff that seems to get more of the radio play sounds like a bunch of no talent pussies with lame riffs hiding behind way too much distortion. Just my .02; doesn't mean I'm right. grin
« Last Edit: Jun 19th, 2010, 03:24am by SOFmed » User IP Logged

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xx Re: modern metal guitar tones
« Reply #28 on: Jun 19th, 2010, 1:13pm »

on Jun 19th, 2010, 03:12am, SOFmed wrote:
Geez AGF...goooozfraba.....it's just my oppinion; calm down. I was reffering to some of the more overly produced nu metal or whatever you call it albums I've heard where the tone is just super saturated. I'm not reffering to any one particular band, guitar player or amp, and I have a "nigling" feeling that I own a Rockstah Mod5 Mojave, a Plexi set up by Dave Friedman of Racksystems, have played a few SLOs, own a Voodoo Deluxe modded 6505+, played a Bogner Shiva and Uberschall, Deizel Herbert, Elmwood Modena, a few Egnators...c'mon brothah you aint the only one to get your hands on the good stuff. wink

What I'm saying is that with even good high gain amps, they sound better cranked, and you can still over do the distortion on just about any of them. I don't think I'm being condescending or berating by voicing my oppinion about how their shit tone sounds to me.

And I dig the Pumpkins and Nirvana; they had good tunes and to me their music at least seemed honest. As for whiney "Emo'ish bands, I was more reffering to stuff like "Bullet for my Valentine". Sorry if there any Emo fans out there, or if any of you really dig that crappy band. laugh

I think one good example of a "non-whiney" modern metal band with good guitar tone is Opeth on blackwater Park. There's a lot of good stuff out there; good playing and good tone. Just erks me that the stuff that seems to get more of the radio play sounds like a bunch of no talent pussies with lame riffs hiding behind way too much distortion. Just my .02; doesn't mean I'm right. grin


Why are you telling me to calm down? I told you I'm not angry in any way. I'm just having a conversion with someone on the interwebz.

And it was just making a point when I said you haven't experienced good amps. You wouldn't be on the Soldano forums if you hadn't. wink I didn't mean it to offend anyone or to assume myself as a more knowledgeable person regarding amplifiers than anyone else. In fact, it's probably the other way around. tongue

Yeah, most amps do sound better cranked. But that's often because of the Fletcher Munson effect, not because of the power-amp gain. There are definitely many amps that demand loud volumes to hit saturated, compressed levels of bliss, but there are many amps that DON'T require that. And those are often lumped into the same category as those overly-compressed, fizzy, mushy, mid-scooped amp tones you're speaking of.

I appreciate Bullet for my Valentine as they're a fun band to listen to. I never take them seriously when they're so unrelatable and unbelievable. But that doesn't mean they're whinny or crap. Look at Iron Maiden or Megadeth – they don't exactly sing about interesting or important topics. They're just fun rock bands - who happen to have whinny and annoying voices.

Opeth are awesome. And yeah, it bothers me too that Bullet will be regarded higher over Opeth. But that's life. Look at Taylor Swift – I find her music very pretentious and frustrating. But it's catchy and “sweet”. So people will favour her over someone else of higher talent, like Laura Marling or the older greats like Kate Bush and Björk.

on Jun 19th, 2010, 12:00am, MrYou wrote:
I don't listen to "Emo" so I don't truly know what it is, but umm... Smashing Pumpkins, The Cure, Nirvana??!! Emo??!! You seem to only be referring to their lyrics right?? Sorry sir, but you're definitely wrong on that one. Your comments have me confused.

I agree with SOFmed comments in regards to "Nu Metals" over reliance on extreme high gain preamp fuzziness with virtually zero dynamics. Its just bland boring rhythm tone, IMO. Thats what they want though. I guess this is where Producers and Sound Engineers earn their pay, making that mush mix well.


Emo IS the lyrics. It's not emo without emotional lyrics. And if you're talking about emo as a fashion statement then Pumpkins and The Cure fit that bill, too.

Why are you confused? I'm simply saying that it's narrow-minded to accuse today's “emo music” whilst having the utmost respect for latter day “emo music”. It's all just music at the end of the day. There's no right or wrong way of doing it.

I play heavy metal but I use very little gain. I find too much gain - whether from the preamp valves or poweramp valves - just covers over everything with noise (obviously that can be useful for certain genres), and doesn't allow the guitarist to “shine through” dynamically.
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xx Re: modern metal guitar tones
« Reply #29 on: Jun 20th, 2010, 03:31am »

High on Fire is not what I would consider a "modern metal" band exactly...those guys are influenced by Black Sabbath and 1970s hard-rock bands and they sound like it. Modern is more of a stylistic + sound descriptor. In regard to metal, Killswitch Engage,Trivium,Slipknot,Lamb of God (I.e.- cookie-monster MTV kiddie metal crap with detuned and/or 7-string guitars) would be "modern" sounding. Opeth would fall into that category as well sonically but not so much stylistically. My previous post was not a generalization (and not really a criticism either...just a fact of modern metal productions.) The variables of unique sounding amps + drum sets are seldom present on modern metal productions. The reason is simple- the fans want that huge sound generated by plug-ins and samples and the labels,managers and artists feel that they must provide a product that can compete in the market. This doesn't prevent bands that are not "modern" sounding from employing those production methods...I'd bet my SLO that plug-ins and drum samples were used on all recent High on Fire albums. And Opeth?! Forget it...all guitar plug-ins and drum samples. Once again, not a criticism at all...just a fact of modern metal productions.
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xx Re: modern metal guitar tones
« Reply #30 on: Jun 20th, 2010, 10:08am »

No, I agree that HOF aren't modern metal. I don't even know if I'd call them "metal" at all. undecided

Opeth, in my opinion, are more in the 80's technical metal range, taking inspiration from bands like Rush, Dream Theatre, Cynic, Death, etc. I never would of sectioned them as a modern band sonically. They have too much of a dark undertone to be modern (which is often quite bright and optimistic).

I don't know about HOF using plug-ins. Have you watched their studio footage on YouTube? Matt is using Mike's first Soldano from lend, and it looks like he's going straight into a mic and into the mixing board / audio interface. I could be wrong obviously, but I just can't imagine HOF using plug-ins when they're sound is so raw. I'm sure they will use a few of them to a certain degree, but not for the core sound. Maybe as little fill sections, but little else - from a guess.

You say it's not a criticism, but you still call Slipknot crap. I definitely see what you're saying - and to a large extent I agree with it - but there is a strong chance that the people who have grown up with Slipknot and the energy they produce will be saying the same thing you and others are saying now in 20 years time when production methods have changed AGAIN, because it's just evolution.
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xx Re: modern metal guitar tones
« Reply #31 on: Jun 20th, 2010, 2:45pm »

Technology in the film industry paralells the music industry. If you take a "heavy-metal" album from 20 years ago and compare it to today,they sound very different. Why is that? It's due to the technologies involved with the production such as plug-ins and drum samples,auto-tune + harmony processors. Electric guitars,tube amps and drumsets have hardly changed at all over the past 25 years! If Nevermore,Megadeth,Opeth,etc. went back 25 years they couldn't make an album that sounds like one of their recent productions. The material would obviously still be of high artistic quality (this is subjective of course.) In 1985, analog recording was the method of recording and digital editing capabilities,plug-ins and drum replacement were distant technologies. So- modern metal guitar and drum sounds are the result of technological advances....not "superior guitars,amps,drums,cymbals,etc." This results in many bands using the same software for guitar and drum sounds which results in a massive but generic sound. The same goes for the visuals in the movie and video game industry. This doesn't mean that quality albums and movies are not being made with state-of-the-art technologies. In addition- it doesn't prevent quality music and movies from being produced using older production forms. In terms of metal- it's all an illusion...the same way that the flying primates in Avatar are an illusion. Monstrous sounding power chords and flying space monkeys are pretty cool though! smiley
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xx Re: modern metal guitar tones
« Reply #32 on: Jun 21st, 2010, 1:41pm »

But if Slipknot's music was made in the 80's, alongside Judas Priest and Metallica when analogue technology was rampant, would they still have created the same energy and aggression?

In my opinion they would have. Of course, they would have received even more hate than they do now because of their image and vulgarity. But accepted at the same time because of their production qualities, which were akin to the time; But only by those who were listening to music of that era. Those who grew up listening to Sabbath and Zeppelin in the 60's, when production was even less “digital”, would have scorned them as “modern bullshit”, just like others are doing now.

That's my point: people will always be complaining, saying how things were "better in their day", and so and so forth. It could of been, yeah. But there's no point saying Cookie Monster music is all BS because of it's “whinny” vocals or because of it's “processed” production qualities, because in 20 years time, someone else will be complaining at another form of music engineering that has changed the face of music again.
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xx Re: modern metal guitar tones
« Reply #33 on: Jul 6th, 2010, 5:39pm »

Wow, all happened when i was away.

i don't even know where to start on this one, but basically, Dan i disagree with virtually everything you've said..

I think what people are railing against here is the nature of new "metal" bands, in that the feeling is that they are generally big label commercial constructs, there to make money out of a demographic. especially "emo".. it's just the worst kind of commercial crap, and as for claiming them as "the original emos" i think billy corgan would have something to say about that. hell even my chemical romance came out and said they were never emo because they wanted to be taken seriously.

in my day (here we go lol) you wanted a pair of combats you went to the army navy surplus and picked up a pair for a tenner. these days there are "specialist" shops catering to the "metal" genre where your combats cost you 50 quid and have a label on them. i've seen it.

the reason we blast on these bands is because this kind of music killed real metal when the marketers got their hands on it. Nu metal was the start of it and it declined in quality and diversity form there.

i will make reference to one comment made about megadeth just singing about fun stuff (paraphrasing). have you listened to them? holy wars? symphony of destruction? peace sells but who's buying? these guys had something to say.

and as for criticising rawness? that's what metal is, you want emotion? well metal is anger and outrage and protestation against everything that's wrong with the world. not "she didn't talk to me in school so i cried myself to sleep after attempting to self harm with a plastic knife in a place were people would notice, but not too badly cos it hurt"

and we don't necessarily think that in our day it was better either. i was too young to know metal existed in the 80's and i certainly wasn't around in the 70's but i think hole in the sky by sabbath is one of the heaviest tunes of all time. i think hair metal was embaressing in the 80's but there was more to metal than that. and here i am to this day still appreciating venom (witching hour anyone). the production in all of these periods was good and bad, as was the music, but for those of us who remember times before Nu metal, it's pretty universal opinion that a good proportion of what came out post nu metal in the generic metal/emo bracket is pretty poor. there are some exceptions like opeth, but their influences lie a lot earlier. and at least dragonforce have the good sense to be a parody.
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xx Re: modern metal guitar tones
« Reply #34 on: Jul 7th, 2010, 08:39am »

There will always be the disgruntled and underground revolution against the commercial babyfood tossed to the masses. That is the spirt and hope of rock and roll/metal whatever you want to call it.

The music industry still wants to craft a sound, feed it to the masses, have the lemmings but it, buy the clothes, buy the concert tickets. And there are people that want to be the next metal version of Paris Hilton. A match made in hell.

I just like the music. Good music finds a way out. When Nirvana broke, the energy was pure and felt like a swinging sledge hammer to the constructed sound of the day. It will happed again. And some marketing guy will try to capture it, cage it, process it, and sell it to all the Miley Cyrus fans that have grown up.

And we will rock on and not waste too much time thinking about it.
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xx Re: modern metal guitar tones
« Reply #35 on: Jul 7th, 2010, 10:32am »

I don't know if I want to go back into this because so many of you clearly feel that metal these days is all about, "she didn't talk to me in school so I cried myself to sleep after attempting to self harm with a plastic knife in a place were people would notice, but not too badly cos it hurt" ... when that is a VERY small minority of music. A minority, I might add, I have no experience with. I mean, name a band that actually sings about stuff like that and I'll tell you whether I've heard of them or like them.

I'm not having a go, I just feel it's hypocritical of both of us. I dissed Megadeth for being shallow - in which you strongly disagreed and added a further point stating they had something to say - and you dissed modern music for being shallow - in which you are very wrong, making you hypocritical, like me.

Like I said, it's such a clichéd thing to say that “all more metal is about hurting myself and being pissed off my girlfriend isn't going down on my enough”, when that is a load of bs. We all know that is only an extremely small figure of bands these days. And they aren't popular, not that I know of. I'm talking about bands like Slipknot, Gojira, The Dillinger Escape Plan, Cloudkicker, Between the Buried and Me, Cult of Luna, Devil Sold His Soul, ISIS, Machine Head, etc. NOT whatever bands you're talking about.

And when you look at Machine Head, I personally see them as a more modernized version of Megadeth - They have the cheesy lyrics, awesome riffs and devoted fans - But, while Megadeth centres strictly within the original version of thrash, Machine Head have branched out into sludge, groove metal, etc. whilst still retaining their thrashy element. They are not processed from the record industry.

It's really annoying when people speculate the origins of certain artists. cry
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xx Re: modern metal guitar tones
« Reply #36 on: Jul 7th, 2010, 11:25am »

on Jul 7th, 2010, 10:32am, AngryGoldfish wrote:
I'm not having a go,



You kinda were.. saying i'm not having a go doesn't make it any less so

on Jul 7th, 2010, 10:32am, AngryGoldfish wrote:
I just feel it's hypocritical of both of us. I dissed Megadeth for being shallow - in which you strongly disagreed and added a further point stating they had something to say - and you dissed modern music for being shallow - in which you are very wrong, making you hypocritical, like me.



I'm not being hypocrtitcal. The hypocracy is the money making machine of the modern commercial music industry which stifles anything that isn't crafted towards an established demographic, which, unless you listen to ultra indie label music, most modern "metal" is. I'm not even that big a MD fan, although dave mustaine is a tasty riffer

on Jul 7th, 2010, 10:32am, AngryGoldfish wrote:
Like I said, it's such a clichéd thing to say that “all more metal is about hurting myself and being pissed off my girlfriend isn't going down on my enough”


Not to those of us who felt totally alienated when nu metal took our music away. Like it or not Emo is the direct descendent of that. and come on really man.. middle class teenage angst is a bit hypocritical and pretentious

on Jul 7th, 2010, 10:32am, AngryGoldfish wrote:
And when you look at Machine Head, I personally see them as a more modernized version of Megadeth - They have the cheesy lyrics, awesome riffs and devoted fans - But, while Megadeth centres strictly within the original version of thrash, Machine Head have branched out into sludge, groove metal, etc. whilst still retaining their thrashy element. They are not processed from the record industry.


Let's not go classifying machinehead as a modern metal band. to me and a lot of us they are the evolution that Metal probably should have taken, given their recent output, i'm prepared to forgive them the deadends that were their albums post "the more things change" and pre "ashes of empires". BTW i went to see these guys support slayer in 95 in belfast. they were one of the roadrunner bands. a fine fine label.

on Jul 7th, 2010, 10:32am, AngryGoldfish wrote:
It's really annoying when people speculate the origins of certain artists. cry


shouldn't have started it then. and i'm not speculating. i was there..

look.. there are a lot of fine modern metal bands out there but this whole debate started because of a question about the sound of modern metal. what most people are objecting to is the fact that it's all software processed overproduced soulessness. it really ain't any different than britney spears, it's the easiest way to output a large amount of dross quickly, and make the most money for the minimum investment. Guys like machine head, slayer, etc don't do that. they still crank and amp in a studio, let rip. and it just sounds better..
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xx Re: modern metal guitar tones
« Reply #37 on: Jul 7th, 2010, 8:31pm »

Emo was born from many different sources, fashions and eras. It was the natural progression of human beings and their desire to be different that really istignated the new musical fad that we're callilng Emo.

For people are more alert about their feelings these days. Magazines give advice on a weekly basis towards those who feel genuinely suicidal or are having marital problems, because that is what people what to read / see / hear. I don't like 'fake' bands either, but I think there is a definitely a miscommunication between us - as I don't know what bands you're talking about. Who are these processed, shitty bands? - After all this talk, I could well agree with you. But, according to many of you here, modern metal is crap because it's whiny and digital.

I'm just going to clarify my point regarding Britney Spears and your point regarding her and the similarities of metal bands today: How are you really to know that Britney Spears didn't love the music that she either helped write or let others write? Because if she did, and if it meant something to others around the globe, so what if it's processed? So what if it makes loads of money? The cheese you eat in your fridge is processed - it needs to be to sell cheaply. The speakers in your cabinets are processed - they need to be or else you'd have to pay twice the price. It doesn't make them useless. These bands serve a purpose, and if they enjoy what they're doing, good for them.

Anyway, if you equate these bands (which still have not been mentioned) to Britney Spears, how can you really know for sure they were mass-produced by marketing companies for the sake of earning money? And how are you to know the bands themselves couldn't give two shits as long as they were making money? You're just guesstimating. If you can actually show me a hard example of a band member you spoke to or read an interview on or even heard rumours about, show me them. I look at bands like KISS, Aerosmith, Bon Jovi, and see the same thing that you see regarding modern bands. But I try not to bitch about them because, even though they sound fake and "digital", every time I read an interview about them or watch a YouTube clip, I remember that these are people that do really love music.

And the same goes for pop music. Yes, some are regularly reported as manufactured music, simply to earn money, but they happen to also make a lot of people happy. And that's fine.
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xx Re: modern metal guitar tones
« Reply #38 on: Jul 8th, 2010, 03:52am »

on Jul 7th, 2010, 8:31pm, AngryGoldfish wrote:
Emo was born from many different sources, fashions and eras. It was the natural progression of human beings and their desire to be different that really istignated the new musical fad that we're callilng Emo.

For people are more alert about their feelings these days. Magazines give advice on a weekly basis towards those who feel genuinely suicidal or are having marital problems, because that is what people what to read / see / hear.


Dan, come on.. are you trying to tell me Emo is a natural evolution of human conciousness, and that up until Emo arrived, there weren't as many magazine columns helplines etc for people with problems? to you Emo is a cause/way of life/mantra etc. to the guys making a bunch of money off you, your a loyal demographic..


on Jul 7th, 2010, 8:31pm, AngryGoldfish wrote:
I don't like 'fake' bands either, but I think there is a definitely a miscommunication between us - as I don't know what bands you're talking about. Who are these processed, shitty bands? - After all this talk, I could well agree with you. But, according to many of you here, modern metal is crap because it's whiny and digital.


Most (not all) of the guys you mentioned tbh.. and no, according to most of us here, modern metal is crap because it's commercial..

on Jul 7th, 2010, 8:31pm, AngryGoldfish wrote:
I'm just going to clarify my point regarding Britney Spears and your point regarding her and the similarities of metal bands today: How are you really to know that Britney Spears didn't love the music that she either helped write or let others write? Because if she did, and if it meant something to others around the globe, so what if it's processed? So what if it makes loads of money? The cheese you eat in your fridge is processed - it needs to be to sell cheaply. The speakers in your cabinets are processed - they need to be or else you'd have to pay twice the price. It doesn't make them useless. These bands serve a purpose, and if they enjoy what they're doing, good for them.


I can pretty much guarantee you that britney spears wrote none of her songs or music, in fact she's a great example of someone who was bled dry to the point of breaking by everyone who was supposed to protect her, it's no wonder she's a mess..

cheese is processed because eating unpasteurised dairy products isn't a fantastic idea, not bad for you as such, but risky. i don't see what that has to do with music. I'm not quite getting what you mean by processed speakers..? do you mean manufactured? um... if they weren't i'd be looking at a large heavy magnet, a bunch of wire and a load of cardboard, probably scratching my head. i wouldn't have paid twice the price for it though.

But as for manufacturing music and mass production, well that stifles creativity. when you tool up to go in to mass production you produce a lot of things cheaply due to the volume and economies of scale. most of the metal genres right now are false economies, as they make out to be different from each other when really all they have done (and i'm talking about the vast amount of chaff out there) is taken a particular element from earlier more balanced metal and ran with it, resulting in very repititive, identikit music. even most of the genre's don't sound different from each other..


on Jul 7th, 2010, 8:31pm, AngryGoldfish wrote:
Anyway, if you equate these bands (which still have not been mentioned) to Britney Spears, how can you really know for sure they were mass-produced by marketing companies for the sake of earning money? And how are you to know the bands themselves couldn't give two shits as long as they were making money? You're just guesstimating. If you can actually show me a hard example of a band member you spoke to or read an interview on or even heard rumours about, show me them. I look at bands like KISS, Aerosmith, Bon Jovi, and see the same thing that you see regarding modern bands. But I try not to bitch about them because, even though they sound fake and "digital", every time I read an interview about them or watch a YouTube clip, I remember that these are people that do really love music.

And the same goes for pop music. Yes, some are regularly reported as manufactured music, simply to earn money, but they happen to also make a lot of people happy. And that's fine.


So, what, in essence, you're saying is f**k the music, it's not important, quite happy with a bunch of guys making a whole lot of money from me in return for weak music?

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xx Re: modern metal guitar tones
« Reply #39 on: Jul 8th, 2010, 10:39am »


Yeah I'm not buying what he's selling. wink
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xx Re: modern metal guitar tones
« Reply #40 on: Jul 8th, 2010, 11:12am »

I don't think I should keep talking about this. We both know it's not really what the Soldano forum is all about. I can't persuade you otherwise, and I know you can't persuade me otherwise. I had a big comment written up as an argument - with articles en all - but it's just kinda silly. I'm not the kind of person who becomes angry at a disagreement - I kinda think it's fun talkin' about this shit - so I hope there are no hard feelings between us?
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